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Generals 2: Fan version
Public Mod Project for Zero Hour
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acidbrain
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Generals 2: Fan version Reply with quote

As you all probably know EA decided to make "Generals 2" a f2p game called "Command and Conquer", you can be positive about that or negative but if EA wants to make money with that concept it has to release extra additions to the game which you have to pay for aka PayToWin.
They are saying that they are listening to the community but just by making it a f2p game and the fact that there will be no modtools available demonstrate that they are doing just the opposite.

This is the place where we are going to make "Generals-2: Fan version", we use the engine from "Zero Hour", make new generals, buildings, units and new powers, a complete overhaul.
This is going to be the "Generals-2" the community would like to see.
We can't make it as fancy as they can with the frosbite engine but we can make it as we want.
If you want to join the team than let us know what your skills are and what you would like to do in the team.
If you have some cool ideas or models you would like to see in "Generals-2" just let us know and post a comment.

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Last edited by acidbrain on Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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VTULCobra
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:35 pm  Reply with quote

I'm in and you know it Razz
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Nemo Mentisson
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:15 pm  Reply with quote

Alright, from the other thread, the idea sounds very good. A real Generals 2 in the original engine, right? I wonder if we can do anything with the hard code (legally) to improve performance. I'm not a programmer except for some very basic stuff, so I wouldn't know. I do know that the number of polys per model you could get away with went up drastically between C&C Gen and C&C3 even though they used basically the same engine. Given today's hardware, what sort of detail do you think we could get away with? Would 400 poly infantry be feasible, you think?

So here are some ideas.
> I like the gameplay balance of having helicopter units having to land and refuel better than I do having them flying all the time. It makes them feel like they have more of a niche. I've worked on some techniques to make forward LZs, which could be interesting.

>I also like making air unit templates like with the technical, so that I can give randomized locomotors with different hover heights to them. Nothing balance breaking, but it looks better than having them all exaclty the same altitude.

>Naturally, use the "turret body" trick.

>I also worked on some ideas for persistent destroyed buildings (having them blow up has always seemed weird), which have to be cleared away before you can build anything else there. I've run into some problems with the AI still being able to build stuff from them though.

>Give secondary functionality to all the things.

>Give infantry something to do. I'm thinking they should be a) significantly cheaper than vehicles and b) come already in light transports. For instance.
  • AmericaFireteam comes in a humvee and includes three rangers, a marksman, and a LAW guy. Rangers are shooty, marksman can hit targets in buildings better, and LAW guy is effective against vehicles at short range (as in, when garrisoned)
  • ChinaFireteam comes in a troop crawler and has five riflemen, a marksman, and two RPG-69 guys.
  • GlaSquad comes in a technical, and includes four rebels, each with an Ak-47 and RPG-7.

Then you could have teams specifically with guided anti-tank missiles, or explosives, or MANPADS, or whatever.

Infantry's role should probably be map control. They should be ill suited to making direct assaults, but good for holding off advances

>Artillery having such a short range in Generals never made sense to me, but having it super long range doesn't work with old Generals gameplay as well. Maybe, give them the ability to do their short range, direct fire thing when supporting an assault, but also allow them to target an area manually, inaccurately, from long range.[/list]

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VTULCobra
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:32 pm  Reply with quote

This sounds very interesting, anyone knows any good coder?
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Nemo Mentisson
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:20 pm  Reply with quote

If you mean ini coder, then you're speaking to a fairly decent one right now.
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acidbrain
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:58 pm  Reply with quote

Very good ideas nemo...
I think we have to determine which generals we are going to use in the mod and make a solid plan.
It would be nice if we can find someone who is good at creating textures so we can give the mod a whole new feel and look.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:20 pm  Reply with quote

Sounds awesome!
Nemo, of course we need good ini coders, but it would also be cool to get into the source. It's not impossible!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:34 pm  Reply with quote

Ok, so I decided to post a little thing me and acid was talking about. It's a new kind of superweapon basically made of two ICBM's. So, if you wanna see a little sketch I made of it, just tell me in this thread. (I'm not the best sketcher, but whatever.) ^^

Here goes;

What if, it's basic cost is $5000, but after you've bought it, you can upgrade it for about $3,500 and get a second missile in the same building (cheaper and more effective). BUT since it cant be too overpowered, here's the downside; if anyone destroys the house, they get 1 bullet 2 kills if you know what i mean.

Second thing; if you have the second missile upgrade, you need more power (ofc like usual) and you'll also get to fire them separate (if possible) meaning that they work like two different sw's if you think of the shortcut buttons, but they're actually in the same building.
So, what do you think of this idea?

*End of stuff.*

So, what do any other people think about this idea? Sounds decent?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:45 pm  Reply with quote

That's feasible, I think. Honestly though, I've never been sure exactly what place super weapons have had gameplay wise. I like how they serve to put pressure on the other player late-game, but they don't actually seem very cost-effective. In most situations, buying eight battlemasters now is a better deal than a reactor and silo to do a little econ harass at some point six or so minutes into the future.

So maybe either make superweapons more powerful so it's even more dramatic/game changing when someone goes for a scud storm, or go for more mundane and immediately useful superweapons.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:09 pm  Reply with quote

I have to say that I totally agree with you. How about we actually make some stuff more realistic here. Like making the super weapons slower to build, raising the cost (quite a lot) but at the same time making the impact of all super weapons much more devastating. You know, you should really get that "Oh fuck..." feeling when you see that your enemy just built a weapon that can wipe out your base, at least half of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:37 am  Reply with quote

I'd like to help with the skinning side of things but commitments to my own mod and the fact that I take forever to finish anything could be a problem for everyone. If time isn't an issue, though, consider me interested Laughing.

From what I've read so far, the goals of this mod have been a little vague. Are you trying to make vanilla ZH better and interesting (plenty of those mods around) or is this going to be Generals 2 - the fan version? Or a remake of ZH so it resembles the alpha? Personally, I think anything will be better than the "improved ZH" mods that we see all too often.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:07 pm  Reply with quote

We're not quite sure yet, though I think we're gonna get our own "personal" feeling to the mod.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:13 pm  Reply with quote

Generals 2: Fan Version. We've learned a lot about how to mod this game over 9 years. Lets see just how well we can apply that now.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:47 pm  Reply with quote

You mean it might differ from my opinion? I think that's awesome. Ah, the wonders of diverse thinking..

Since the goal of the mod isn't set in stone yet, I might as well express what I'd like in a dream mod : More realistism and depth when it comes to air combat.

A few ideas:

- Implementing the old stealth aircraft logic originally intended for the Stealth Fighter where any AA unit would have to spend a couple of seconds locking onto it before being able to fire. Since the duration it takes to get a lock can be varied, you could simulate the differences between stealth aircraft. eg. it'll take longer to get a lock on an F-22 than an F-117.

- Distinct classes of aircraft (Fighters, Attackers, Bombers, etc..) with their effectiveness dependant on their type. Eg. Fighters get an attack bonus against Attackers and Bombers.

- Aircraft not unloading everything they have on a single target. Always thought it was stupid that a Raptor would launch it's entire payload at an infantry unit (and miss).

- Distinction between guidance types. Heat seeking could be short ranged but manoeuvrable. Radar guided could be longer ranged but easier to jam.

Hope that helps in the brain storming.

Edit - this was a reply to VTULCobra. I should quote from now on..
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:41 pm  Reply with quote

Bomb_Tank wrote (View Post):
You mean it might differ from my opinion? I think that's awesome. Ah, the wonders of diverse thinking..

Since the goal of the mod isn't set in stone yet, I might as well express what I'd like in a dream mod : More realistism and depth when it comes to air combat.

A few ideas:

- Implementing the old stealth aircraft logic originally intended for the Stealth Fighter where any AA unit would have to spend a couple of seconds locking onto it before being able to fire. Since the duration it takes to get a lock can be varied, you could simulate the differences between stealth aircraft. eg. it'll take longer to get a lock on an F-22 than an F-117.

- Distinct classes of aircraft (Fighters, Attackers, Bombers, etc..) with their effectiveness dependant on their type. Eg. Fighters get an attack bonus against Attackers and Bombers.

- Aircraft not unloading everything they have on a single target. Always thought it was stupid that a Raptor would launch it's entire payload at an infantry unit (and miss).

- Distinction between guidance types. Heat seeking could be short ranged but manoeuvrable. Radar guided could be longer ranged but easier to jam.

Hope that helps in the brain storming.

Edit - this was a reply to VTULCobra. I should quote from now on..

I've experimented a lot with aircraft, actually. Since aircraft in Generals are kinda lame, we should definitely be considering ideas like this to change things up.

Using that lock on logic is a good idea, definitely, though we'll have to see how it actually plays.

The thing is, this is not a good engine to simulate planes with any degree of accuracy, so our goal probably shouldn't be realism, per se, but changing their balance and usefulness. Since we're having helicopters take more of a role as powerful, jet-like close air support that has to rearm and refuel at base/forward LZ, that kinda takes away part of the former role of jets.

So perhaps we should consider doing this: have jets as units that you call in from outside the map. You can command them like a regular unit, but once they spend their ordinance, they go off-map again and you have to wait until some more jets are on-station to call in.

Different types of missiles and ordinance is a given, I think. We could do it like the did in the CWC mod. It's switching between ordinance that's a problem. And you have to make sure that all the ordinance on a single plane can be used to attack the same sort of targets, otherwise you have jets trying to drop bombs on jets once they run out of missiles.

...though if we're talking FAEBs, I guess that might works vs helicopters, Ace Combat 04 style...

Planes not unloading all their missiles at once is just a matter of changing time between shots to more than the average time it takes two planes to merge with each other when attacking. Though if I can ever get it to work right, we could go for the whole Itano circus thing, but have each volley count as a single shot. That might look cool.

So here's some stuff it might be cool if aircraft could do.

- Air superiority ;of course
- Air interdiction ;maybe with dumb bombs or napalm
- Jamming?? ;dunno how exactly this would work
- SEAD ;would be very handy
- AWACS ;but not in the traditional sense. Have AWACS reveal surface to air missile vehicles and aircraft. Maybe have AWACS the unit that actually calls in other aircraft.

Anyway, I'm also thinking about GLA units a bit. I'm thinking it would be cool if they had a fast vehicle with old wire guided anti-tank missiles. They can and in fact do miss a lot, but they can destroy most tanks in a single hit and with their mobility stay back behind the cheap, paper-thin-armored Scorpions.

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