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Team maps Mapmaking Workshop (2v2, 3v3)
Need for new good-quality, competitive maps
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FRenzy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Team maps Mapmaking Workshop (2v2, 3v3) Reply with quote

Need for maps :

Recently, there was this interesting discussion started by OMnom on how to create competitive maps, what are the ingredients to make a good-quality map, that allows for diverse gameplay and strategical depth.

A great work has been done on developing the 1v1 map-pool, with now a dozen maps used in daily matches and competitions alike, some of which are now part of the Official map pool. Creative maps are being furthermore developed, such as he SoS maps with capturable buildings, mo's maps exploring the usage of water and bridges, and many more ...

However, from my own perspective, I have been very frustrated with the existing team maps offer, as most of these are not even close to the quality standard that is taking shape in the 1v1 map scene. From my point of view, nearly 90% of the team maps in the official map pool, and even in the community-made one, present major flaws in their design.

I think it is a good time to work on the team map offer ! Not only this would create more enjoyable games for the existing player base, but this is also very needed for the image of OpenRA towards newcomers, as team games might probably more comfortable and attractive to them than competitive 1v1. In other words, team maps are an important part of OpenRA's vitrine.

The workshop :

In this workshop, I'd like to focus exclusively on 2v2 and 3v3 maps. I think this is a good start to start developing quality maps : adapting the qualities of 1v1 maps on this category will be easier. Furthermore, I think the dimension of a map, which is related to the number of lanes, to the players positioning, ... is a physical limit to a map's quality. Therefore, good 4v4+ maps might become a bit gigantic, and harder to develop. So let's focus now on 2v2 and 3v3, for a start.

Of course, everybody is encouraged to participate here, to propose new maps, to give suggestions and criticism on the proposed maps, to tweak them, to discuss, to make sketchy drawings, etc ... This is an open workshop, feel free to propose what you want !

Map-making is not an easy task, so everybody's help and insight is welcome Smile

In this original post, I will sort and group all the WIPs and final maps.

Also, this is different, but maybe complementary to NoobMapMaker's Map Design Contest. This workshop is more a long-run effort, that will probably take longer in time. I raelly want the final results to be as good as in the 1v1 pool. So there's a need to take the time and probably go through multiple iterations, until starting to get good results.
But NoobMapMaker, if you see any connection that should/could be made with your Contest, I'd be glad to do that !


Design checklist / process :
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303121#303121

Maps References :
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303332#303332

Map making tools & tips :
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303338#303338


The maps :

Definitive maps :
3v3 :
- ...

2v2 :
- ...

Work in Progress maps :

3v3 :
- Jungle Law - by FRenzy - Version v0.6b
http://resource.openra.net/maps/21999
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303036#303036

2v2 :

- Sideways - by (SoScared), FRenzy - Concept v2
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303067#303067

- Zen Attitude - by Materianer
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303091#303091

- Climax - by Wippie
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303186#303186

- Mad Science - by (PizzaAtomica), Blackened
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303157#303157

- Tyrants, by Blackened
http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303317#303317

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FRenzy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:43 am  Reply with quote

3v3 map : Jungle Law - by FRenzy

Current version : v0.6b


Link : http://resource.openra.net/maps/22042/
Image (original size) : http://imgur.com/xM7KUSS
Map by : FRenzy - Original map : Vegetation by hamb/Chris Forbes

http://i.imgur.com/xM7KUSSh.png

v0.6b : - uploaded !
Changes :
- minor adjustments in the center : some debris to avoid basewalking the 4 patches, derricks are separated

v0.6 :

After some playtesting, eco seemed to be problematic. It seems the proliferation of objectives makes everything unstable. Like in 1v1 on Patches.

http://imgur.com/b3MoV1e
http://imgur.com/lzo5vgR
http://i.imgur.com/b3MoV1el.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/lzo5vgRl.png

- reduced patches count, while keeping balance in case of FFA. Ore from 45k to 40k/pl. Starting ore unchanged.
- added 2 oil derricks in the center for experimentation

v0.5 :
Decided to make a benchmark on these maps, comparing their measures, to see where we are going now.

http://imgur.com/fAIVwq3
http://imgur.com/FnjYXLQ
http://imgur.com/PJaBWjV

http://i.imgur.com/fAIVwq3.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/FnjYXLQ.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/PJaBWjV.png


You can how radically different those maps are now ! And how very basic Vegetation is becoming, compared to PoA and JL.
I'm starting to get happy with the map. Maybe still needs some improvements, like putting debris to reduce basepush (but where ??), but pasepush isn't so strong anymore.
I think, and after playtesting, that 18k of starting ore is a bit tight. So I increased it to 22k.
Also, overhaul the corners decorations. I think it's getting better.

http://imgur.com/HMJQLi1
http://i.imgur.com/HMJQLi1.png

v0.4b :
Corrected few mistakes, added 1 ore mine on each big patch.


v0.4 :
Analysing v0.3 flaws.
Corrections : http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303151#303151
New map at http://resource.openra.net/maps/21986

Map very slightly expanded. Original area is the same, lanes as proposed, but expanded a bit, because of difficulty to fit the outer patches.

Trying different filling decorations.

Still needs a big decoration work.

v0.3 :
Added roads and decorations !

v0.2 :
After a few tests, gameplay is very encouraging. But it seems that 160c is too large for this map.
Will work on a new 0.2 version, scaling it down to 128c as a new try

Edit : version 0.2 uploaded ! Scaled down to 128c, changed a bit ore placement on outer ring, reduced eco from 440k to 240k. (drastic reduce ! is it too much ?)
Will start testing it.

v0.1 :

The basic idea was to make the map more open and allow mobility, by widening the pathways, and increasing the number of lanes.
Basically, there are 3 circular lanes : the central ring, the middle ring that connect the main bases, and the outer ring. + a central area (4th lane)

I've tried to distribute ore placements, and their strategical values. Ore patches can be attacked, either by moving armies or basepushes, but the openness of the terrain allows for good defense.

The map size went from 96*96 to 160*160, so a 167% increase size. In factn I don't think this is enough, as 1v1 maps like Sidestep or Greenbelt are already 96*96. Does a 3v3 map need 3 times more space ? On the other hand, over 200*200 maps might becoming too big, to be able to see what happens on the map.
(As a comparison, Asymmetric Batlle is 126*126)

I'm not entirely sure about the ore distribution (quantity-wise), maybe starting ore needs a bit more ?

Inspiration :

The whole idea of this workshop actually came to me, when I was thinking about the map Vegetation.
As you all know, this map is a 2 lanes map, in which the lanes are very choky, and the buildable area is very limited.

This map highly guides towards a static, arty based game, and makes gameplay variety very difficult.
However, it is still maybe the central 3v3 map in the official release, so I thought this might be the most important map to start with.

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Last edited by FRenzy on Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:30 am; edited 18 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:09 pm  Reply with quote

I've got a lot of time on my hands now due to a bike injury so am playing a lot of openra.

I feel the same, most of the team maps are junk and play predictably turtley.

Am trying this Jungle map out a bit today. Nice work.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:39 pm  Reply with quote

Nice! The map contest wint be around any time soon (2018) so go ahead and make nice maps! I too think big team maps could use improvement.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:18 pm  Reply with quote

I've tried the map a few times now (after we played earlier in the day). Whilst it's hard to get competent players i still feel like it's over eco and over sized somewhat. I think even with some balanced players it would become a massive army A move festival.

But the design is good. The gaps are good. Let us know if you manage to draw any more conclusions from it too.
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FRenzy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:09 pm  Reply with quote

eskimo wrote (View Post):
ILet us know if you manage to draw any more conclusions from it too.

As soon as the new version is ready, I'll let you know, and we'll be able to compare them ! Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:55 pm  Reply with quote

Jungle Law v0.2 uploaded ! See OP.
Will start map-testing Smile

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:10 pm  Reply with quote

Btw, if anyone has interesting replays on any of the maps being developed, make sure to share them here, so that their map-makers can improve their design !
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:18 pm  Reply with quote

2v2 map : Sideways - by FRenzy

Current version : (Concept v2)
Link : (no map yet)
Images (original size) : http://imgur.com/9kYNtNp
Map by : FRenzy - Original map : Sidestep by SoScared

Concept v2
http://i.imgur.com/9kYNtNpl.png

Concept v1
http://i.imgur.com/O8XPyycm.png


Inspiration :

Adapting 1v1 maps into 2v2. To see what it can give, we're just experimenting here ... Smile
Starting with Sidestep (by SoScared), as it's one of my favourite 1v1 maps !

Concept stage :

Analysing Sidestep :
Basically, there are 5 main lanes in SS : 1 small central lane, 2x2 circular lanes on each side. + additional small paths, and radial connecting ways.

http://i.imgur.com/C25RAg3m.png http://i.imgur.com/xjmKvS1m.png

Design :

Concept v1 :
On 2v2 : each players will have the same number of lanes against the opposite player. Therefore, central area will be common lanes , where team fight can happen. While outer lanes will probably be for 1v1 fights.
Maybe also playable NvS ? FFA ?

Ore placement has been a bit changed, squeezed, in order to give the same relative positions of ore patches to each player. Overall, there shouldn't be a big change from Sidestep.

Size : 25% taller, so 120x96 (original Sidestep : 96x96).
I don't this 2v2 map would work at 96x96, its design would then be too hard.
Might start drawing it tomorrow !

Concept v2 :
Central corridor has been simplified : only 2 lanes in this corridor. They are common to the northern and southern players (i.e. : these are the "2 southern" lanes for northern players, and vice versa).

I was feeling in the previous version, that north and south would have little interaction. Like 2 separate "Sidestep 1v1", but taking place on the same map ...

Map is less tall (maybe squeezable in 96x96 ?)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:39 pm  Reply with quote

Nice approach!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:59 pm  Reply with quote

At first i thought it was modern art.

What i find interesting is having to decide if it's symmetrical map or a specific side vs side (LvsR etc) when theorising maps.

I look forward to this DualStep map if you make it Wink

Unfortunately still have not had any quality games worth accessing on Jungle yet. Has been a lot of unsuccessful first minute base pushing on it. Hi got caught out on it earlier, but survived. Then the looser ends up being a burden to his team and consequencely looses.
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FRenzy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:23 pm  Reply with quote

noobmapmaker wrote (View Post):
Nice approach!

Thanks Razz
eskimo wrote (View Post):

At first i thought it was modern art.

Laughing Laughing Laughing

eskimo wrote (View Post):

Has been a lot of unsuccessful first minute base pushing on it. Hi got caught out on it earlier, but survived.


Do you mean Hi tried basepushing, but failed, thus his team lost ?

I saw that early basepushing isn't strong anymore on this map, and can be severely punished. Because there isn't really a "get there first" area on this map.

Which is a good thing ! Early basepushes should come at a cost. The way team games are played will change, and be closer to how 1v1s are played.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Team maps Mapmaking Workshop (2v2, 3v3) Reply with quote

FRenzy wrote (View Post):
However, from my own perspective, I have been very frustrated with the existing team maps offer


Yes i feel with you

FRenzy wrote (View Post):
The workshop :

In this workshop, I'd like to focus exclusively on 2v2 and 3v3 maps. I think this is a good start to start developing quality maps : adapting the qualities of 1v1 maps on this category will be easier. Furthermore, I think the dimension of a map, which is related to the number of lanes, to the players positioning, ... is a physical limit to a map's quality. Therefore, good 4v4+ maps might become a bit gigantic, and harder to develop. So let's focus now on 2v2 and 3v3, for a start.

Of course, everybody is encouraged to participate here, to propose new maps, to give suggestions and criticism on the proposed maps, to tweak them, to discuss, to make sketchy drawings, etc ... This is an open workshop, feel free to propose what you want !

Map-making is not an easy task, so everybody's help and insight is welcome Smile


http://www.vitamin-ha.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Challenge-Accepted_3-300x191.jpg

I will make a 3 vs 3 map with some relevant water because there seem to be only a few good water maps.
I dont want to make an island map like bombardement islands and i dont want the water at the outlines of the map.
Also my map should not be one of the many maps on wich matches end under 5 minutes because someone moved his base close to the enemy.

My inspiration i take from a yin yan sign.
I got 3 lanes then, i think 10 cells per lane should be enough or?
So lets see how what result will have this Grin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Team maps Mapmaking Workshop (2v2, 3v3) Reply with quote

Materianer wrote (View Post):

I will make a 3 vs 3 map with some relevant water because there seem to be only a few good water maps.
I dont want to make an island map like bombardement islands and i dont want the water at the outlines of the map.
Also my map should not be one of the many maps on wich matches end under 5 minutes because someone moved his base close to the enemy.

Those are definitely good points !
I'm not really a water guy when it comes to maps ^^, so feel free to take this subject !

Materianer wrote (View Post):

I got 3 lanes then, i think 10 cells per lane should be enough or?


The thick Sidestep's lanes are ~10-13c wide.
10c is definitely enough !
I'd say :
10(+)cells : big lane, good for maneuvers / engagements
5 cells : medium/choky lane, but can pass a whole army through it if undefended
1-3 cells : secret passage (sneak attacks, ...)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:51 am  Reply with quote

Jungle Law v0.3 updated !
Added roads and decorations.
Getting closer to a final version ! Smile

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